We own a MHC in Tulsa and have lost 11 residents because of the immigration law the state of OK is now enforcing which makes it a felony to transport, employ or house an illigal immigrant.
Is anyone else experiencing a similar situation?
Kirk there were many discussions posted regarding this but one day I couldn’t find it anymore. Maybe the University can furnish you with those discussions.
Well it is about to get worse… Next they are gonna start taking peoples houses and property:
Wed November 14, 2007
Landlords facing illegal resident law?
By Richard Mize
Real Estate Editor
State Rep. Randy Terrill wants police and prosecutors to be able to seize and liquidate the property of people who give aid and comfort to illegal residents
the law, but over 70 such laws in 33 states have been enacted and then injucted. There is NO way the US government will allow states to control immigration for long. Most of these laws force owners to do immigration work by checking ID’s. how can you determine if their DL or SSAN is for real or false? In my State (FL) you can’t. Very wierd when you think about it…asking a rental property owner to verify legal status when the government can’t and won’t. In this State a police officer can only ask the legal status of a non driver…they can NOT ask for supporting docs to prove they are here legally…
Sorry this law is hurting your business model. Please post when this law is also repealed or stayed. I am shocked the ACLU allowed this law to enact.
Greg
Greg,
Oklahoma lawmakers (specifically the one listed in the article) have decided to get really tough on illegal immigrants and have enacted the toughest laws out there. They are going nuts in my opinion and there are already many lawsuits against the new laws and they are only about a week old.
The local REI club is trying to get clarification about these new laws and just how far someone has to go in checking paperwork provided. That is my biggest question as well. If all you have to do is make sure they have paperwork then it is not a big deal, but I am betting they are going to want us to do more checking.
I think that like it or not this will lead to discrimination against hispanics because they will cost more just to check. Of course it may not matter as the above poster has found out many are just moving out of state. Of course this doesn’t help to fill the vacancies I have now…
and it is a very bad law:
The Governor was almost forced to sign the legislation into law…he is a politician.
My fear (same as yours) is it will negatively impact legal immigrants…and landlords. A property manager or owner quickly gets tired of endless red tape and government intervention and I fear many will just mentally dismiss anyone brown or Spanish speaking.
The last time this issue was addressed here, I had over 70 e-mails, some favorable to my personal views. One however started " Greg, you’re nothing but a Messican yourself, I looked at your picture on MHU"
Jad, I never laughed so hard…a spelling challenged bigot. Bottom line, in some areas of Florida (and Texas) any minority has a terrible time finding safe, affordable housing (and this is exactly what you/I provide)…this type of law will exacerbate (whew) the problem. I will do my part and continue to rent to the most qualified tenant regardless of color or creed. Race is a social construct with no basis in biological fact. We are all members of ONE race…the human race or more accurately Homo Sapiens.
The legal and moral issues surrounding illegal immigration are huge. There are arguably 15 million illegals here…or put another way the entire populations of Michigan and Minnesota combined. And the suggestions on what to do range from total amnesty to deportation of all illegals. I am sure the final (Federal) plan, if there ever is one, is somewhere in the middle.
An interesting note…if the government could deport these 15 million folks every State would have to process 1000 applicants a day for 300 weekdays…how likely is this to ever happen??
Regards,
Greg
I stood out of the first round of threads on this subject. After all I figured that my being a Messican (I love that one Greg) I figured most would look at anything I typed as being biased but I feel that I need to post on this subject.
One thing that I remember from the oaths I have taken as both a Marine and Law Enforcement Officer was a phrase that I think is one we should think about here. That phrase was, “To obey all LAWFUL ORDERS given to me by superior officers”. During my 14 years of service to my country times did come up when I had to evaluate what a LAWFUL ORDER was and what my duty was in those situations regarding following an order that I did not believe was lawful. In this instance we have a law which I equate to an order but is that law/order LAWFUL and is it our duty as Americans to follow it or to do what is right. I AM NOT ADVOCATING BREAKING THE LAW but it is something we all need to think about.
I have served my country, carried friends who died in uniform to their graves. I have been spit on by those who hated the uniform I wore to protect their right to protest against everything that I believe in. I believe that we as Americans have a DUTY to do what is right regardless of the orders (or laws) that have been handed down. If you believe that way you must be prepared to suffer the repercussions if you are found to be in the wrong but sometimes it really is the principle of the matter.
I will not comment or talk about the actual question of Immigration because I choose not to (even if I think it would surprise many of you out there to know where I stand on the subject) but I wanted to post my thoughts for all of you to think about.
On November 29th of 1998 my friend Office Brian Brown #32054 LAPD a former Marine was killed in the line of duty chasing down a gang member who had just committed a murder. He was a single father and left behind his son Dylan. My oldest son is named after Brian Brown and no matter what you think of me or my post I would like to ask you to thank our service men and women who wear the uniform and risk their lives for our rights to debate what is right and wrong here on this forum.
Respectfully Submitted
Ruben D. Flores
Perhaps it would be a good idea for everyone to get to know Mr. Webster and look up the word “specious.” Arguments in favor of illegal aliens usually have little or nothing to do with “freedom” or “civil rights” and much to do with your bottom line.
Going back to college economics; On a micro scale some people benefit but on a macro scale, ah, now there’s the problem.
Rolf
Thank you for your contribution as a Marine and a police officer. This is a very emotional subject on any board and I agree with all you say.
The problem in my neck of the woods is there is no written concise instruction with dealing with the problem of figuring out who is legal and who is not. Our own government can’t tell. To put the onus of enforcement on landlords is morally and legally wrong and it kills me that we could end up in legal conflict through ignorance or false paperwork provided TO us…
In 6 months a person could have their property siezed for renting to an illegal in OK. Taken. It just blows my mind. The panacea for all involved is to have a fair, balanced, immigration policy that all understand. There will have to be some amnesty involved and the most vocal opponents of this are the LEGAL immigrants that worked tirelessly to become legal Americans.
A huge thanks to you and Michael for your great presentation at MOM…you guys rock
Greg
Have you heard of photo ID? Seems to work reasonably well for the airlines and TSA. When I used to rent my properties in CA, all sorts of people would walk away when I told them I required photo ID for each adult. The usual question I got was whether or not a SS card was good enough for ID. I simply said if you cannot get on a plane with it, then you cannot use it to rent from me. Getting a SS card simply meant a trip to the local flea market while a driver’s license was next to impossible to get. Perhaps things are different in other states.
Rolf
I don’t know what a North Dakota or a Mississippi DL looks like. A bouncer friend of mine in Orlando says 1 in 4 licenses he looks at are fake and these are only the ones he knows of, he estimates at any time 1 in 10 in “Da Club” are under the legal age…you can pick up ID cards at the flea market also…with a real live picture.
There are also many “fake ID” sites on the internet and we have found several Georgia licenses here which are indistinguishable from the real thing. My buddy Deputy Dave who works for Marion County Sheriff’s Office also says fake ID is a Huge Problem and fakes get past them also.
Photo ID is not the issue…the issue is how does a landlord sort out the fakes. Call the SSAN and try to verify a SS#. They ask you to submit a request form…we did one in August of 06 and still have not heard back. Try to hold a sale or rental for this verification…I know that i can’t.
Over half my buyers (and renters) are from out of state…and don’t have FL ID. You don’t need to convert to FL license if you live here part time…as over 15% of our population does.
The problems are greater than most folks realize…including our own elected officials.
Greg
Plus for quite sometime illegals were allowed to get photo IDs in Oklahoma (that is one thing this law changed) so that will most likely not be enough. If it was as simple as that then I would have no issue with it. But as Greg said (and I can attest to this) there are enough fakes out there that I doubt the “government” will determine this to be an adequate check.
That is the whole question I have is what do we have to do to make sure we have appropriately checked their information and are thus safe from prosecution? In truth I do not see anyway that this will not result in discrimination for any buyer/renter that has brown skin or does not speak perfect english.
Funny thing is I think I am seeing the silver lining in that those that are legal may be a market to go after as everyone else will be running from them. I am definitely going to find how far the background check needs to go and then may run some hispanic friendly ads…
Jad
Today I met with my Mexican tenants, and explained the new law to them in Oklahoma. Two of the room mates were without papers, and spoke no English. They were great young men, all of them. One will help me clean up the park Monday, he’s legal. These are the very best tenants I have, and a third of my income at this park, one pays two months at the time. They don’t own dogs. I told them when I left, if they had any friends and family in Oklahoma, to tell them one Alabama landlord says “YALL COME!!!”, grin.
Clearly this law is an attempt to get to the business and landlords who do prey on the illegal aliens. Lets be honest when someone rents to 5 to 6 men only at high rates , who speak no english, have no papers etc. and charge them high rates for bad places then they know exactly who they are renting to. Big business and small turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants because of the cheap labor. Lowes even has a CD disc and program to communicate to “employees” basic language skills to take advantage of their illegal status and their desire to get ahead. Do not blame the illegal immigrants who are coming over, blame a country that toterates it and does not enforce its own immigration laws.
But do not act like business and people including landlords do not take advantage of the situation at the expense of the general community. Come to my home and within 20 miles I will show you were the illegal immigrants live. It is the mobiles and apts. that charge a lot and pretend they have absolutely no concern, if they even think the people are legally here why the high rents and run down parks.
Be honest with each other, do not pretend that you are “helping” the illegals for any other reason but your own good . The illegal immigrants are no worse and no better than any other group on the economic ladder.
They come here to better themselves but are subject to people who take advantage of them. Then the people who take advantage of them praise them for being “good” which means they pay a lot and work cheap. I rent to a good friend of Hispanic orgin, legal immigrant who just left NC due to the labor force of illegal immigrants. He is strongly opposed to illegal immigration. He left his native country because of the corruption, judical system and explotive economic system. He feels it is following him as this country does not enforce its own laws and allows this situation because of big and small greedy business owner and misguided “liberals” who throw race and ethic background into the discussion.
So pretend you have no stake in the issue, that you are absolutely unaware of who is illegal and nothing is to be done about it. In twenty years after a massive influx of more , poor,uneducated in our slowing declining economy our spin toward third world economy and culure will be complete, but you were unaware and it is just good business. To you who rent to people who “might” be illegal , do you honestly think they are going to go “home” ever. Are they saving money to bring the rest of the “family” here to get education and higher standard of living? Do you think they are paying federal income tax and where do they get medical care? Good corperate and private citzenship built this country but it is gone now. Good luck, short term you are smart and fooling yourself but long term hurting our country. Oh and please do not input any racism or bigotry into the above. Also I know we are a nation of immigrants but LEGAL immigrants who played by the rules. Also I am not an native born Indian so I cannot enfoce the laws of our nation as we are all “illegal”, right? Do you guys really think that anyone wants to hurt honest small or big business. It is like Tyson chicken and the big employers of illegals who cannot “document” if the person they hire has a phoney SSN, and documents. Get real. It is a bogus arguement by the greedy. Garry
Gary,
First off let me state that I currently do not have a single buyer that is even hispanic never the less illegal.
Secondly I do not have that much problem with the law itself and its intent (other than I agree with Greg that it is idealistic to think simply laws like this will rid us of illegal immigrants).
The problem I have is that the government of my fair state has decided to put the cart before the horse. The way the law is written it is so cloudy that most of us here are not even sure what is breaking this law and what isn’t.
NOW instead of putting a simple procedure in place (ie if you get a prospective tenant just run his credentials through our database or something like that) they are just making threats that they are going to put in place a law and will take your property. And for that matter where does it stop? Say for instance I have a legal immigrant who decides unbenownst to me to move their illegal significant other in with them. The lawman comes around, finds out and bam I am breaking the law and lose my property. I know most of us are pretty good about watching when we get these “extra” tenants but they can still slip through. Guess what that means now, you lose your investment property. So what do you think most investors are going to do… not rent to anyone with brown skin so as not to risk it!
My whole point is that instead of making more threats they should make a process for those of us that want to live within the law.
Good point and I understand your concern. I do feel that if you just do what you are doing and use common sense in background checks the law will not affect you. It does seem it is for the slum lords and the weekly rental parks who cater to the illegal aliens , who are at their mercy.
I use to wonder why so many illegal aliens had North Carolina drivers license and cars registered there. The reason was they were to easy to get license and register car if you were illegal. Now I understand it has changed and there is a drop in illegal license issued. The law worked in this case.
I do business. I truly try to be ethical and follow the law of man but importantly the law of God (do unto others). You seem to be a decent hard working person who is concerned about her business, your attitude and work ethic is what made this country what it is. The law will not affect you and it is not intended to get you. The law if enacted will be over the abusers. We all know that run down property (slums) and taking advantage of the uneducated who do not know better is how to make the big bucks, some can call it good business or to make themselves feel better"serving a need" but it is immoral and wrong. Best to you and you are a winner for being so concerned
Garry -
“The law will not affect you and it is not intended to get you.”
I’m not a park owner or even a Lonnie dealer as yet. I am an American citizen who was born in a foreign country and have lived in the USA my entire life.
At the risk of stirring the pot I will say that if you truly believe the above statement we absolutely do not live in the same land.
There are all kinds of laws that are selectively enforced.
I would hope that as you say this law will be used only to go after what you have described as park owners who prey on illegal immigrants. But I for one do not trust our government to that extent. Once a law is passed it can and will be enforced selectively as the government sees fit, for whatever reason.
This law may not be intended to get to legitamate business people and park owners, but it will affect everyone in the mh business.
Best of luck to your continued success.
James Hagarty
Dover, DE
James that’s right! And I make it perfectly published that as a landlord in Alabama, at this time, any human being is welcome to apply for a land lease with my company on any community we control. YALL COME!!!
Garry -
“The law will not affect you and it is not intended to get you.”
America is a great country. I was born here & I am proud to live here, but I can’t agree with this statement. There are abuses of power & the law in this country each & every day, & I can’t see that this would be any different.
you are right, laws are selectively enforced. Up until now they were selectively non enforced on the companies and people hiring the illegal immigrants. The laws were not enforced so it enticed the illegal immigrants to continue to come. Give me some real examples of laws selectively enforced that impact you daily. Do I trust my government, yes I do. Are there bad decisions made and human errors , of course. I have more confidence in the gov’t to look out for the welfare of the general public than business big or small. Laws not enforced on inspection of China goods, laws not enforced on paying taxes on large corperations etc. Again let me know of any real , concrete times the laws was selectively enforced againist you as an individual or business owner. Do you think a conservative, pioneer based state like OK is a bastion of liberal big government? Get real guys you are worried about something that is only going to affect you if you are in the wrong. I do agree that it should be very specific on what is expected if the law passes.